Prostitution - The Customer's Perspective
Date: 11 Aug 1994 20:21:40 GMT
John #1:
I've noted that some folks occassionaly mention pointers on how to avoid legal problems when engaging a prostitute. I've always suspected that this is mostly a "street" problem, i.e. when picking up hookers on the street. I do know, though, that there have been stings run out of hotel rooms as well.
Unfortunately, the problem often runs both ways in that a girl will try to get you to say what you want to do and for how much since she is also worried that you might be a cop. How do you deal with this problem?
First of all, let me admit that I got busted once. It was about 12 years ago, and it was for "offering to engage in prostitution", a misdemeanor. Since then, I have learned that you never ever talk about anything while a girl is on the street leaning into the window of your car. If you are interested in a street girl, invite her into your car first. If she won't get in, you don't want her. It doesn't matter how good she looks, you don't want her. Believe me. Now, if she is in your car than there is a 99.99% chance she is not a cop because the cops don't like putting their ass on the line, so to speak, to this extent. However, you can always make absolutely sure by asking the woman to show you her pussy before you discuss anythin. I have also had girls ask me to show them my cock before talking anything with me as well. Guess it goes both ways.
As far as hotel or outcall services, I think similar rules might apply. You might tell her "I wouldn't think of paying for sex, but I was thinking about making a donation to your children's college fund - say $150?". Be creative - if it is a cop, you're probably on video tape and as long as you have made it clear you don't want to pay for sex, you should probably not have a problem. Again, you might ask the girl directly if she is a cop and, if not, to show you her pussy. The cops typically cannot go this far to entrap you.
I'd be interested in having others post any tips they might have. Let me tell you, getting busted is a real drag. Fortunately, when it happened to me I had the $100 on me to post bail but I still had to sit in jail for 4 hours while they ran a fingerprint check on me. Fortunately, this didn't happen in the state where I lived so I just paid the bail money and split. Never heard another word about it. But otherwise, you have to go to court and pay the fine, etc.
John #2:
I have been "using" streetwalkers for "special" services for over 13 years, and have not (yet) been arrested. My "system", based on experience and advice from several working girls I met, is the following:
stop your car somewhere close to the girl, wait for her to come to you and get in. DO NOT negotiate with her until she is in the car and you are driving away. "Decoys" would like you to solicit sex for money while they are standing safely outside your car on the sidewalk ... don't make it that easy for them. If the girl says anything to you before she gets in your car, just say "Do you want a ride?" (ie, pretend you think she is just a hitchhiker looking for a ride). NEVER solicit sex from a girl standing outside of your car: if she wants to talk about sex before she gets in your car, just drive away (even if she is not a cop, it is too risky to find out).
after she is in your car, drive away, but if she TELLS YOU where to go, be very suspicious (there may be cops, or worse things waiting there for you). Make small talk until you get several blocks away, like ask her her name, how old she is, if she is from town. Many girls will ask you if you are a cop, or you can ask her. The answer means nothing, but you can ask her to "prove" that she is not a cop by lifting her shirt and letting you squeeze a tit ... some girls will ask you to unzip and pull it out : the hope is that if the girl is a cop, anything she says or does after she lets your feel her tits is entrapment, and would probably be thrown out of court
This should keep you safe. I haven't used outcall services, so don't have any advice there. For "incall" serivces, ie "massage parlors" etc, I have generally let the girl call the shots ... I let her do the solicitation. If she solicits me, and we negotiate a fun time, then they will have a satisfied repeat customer. If the girl never brings up the subject of sex (ie, just does the "legal" thing), then I assume they are a legitimate business and I look elsewhere for fun, ie they have lost my repeat business. (ps, don't "tip" a girl in advance for services you "hope" she will provide ... assume that she will do only exactly what was advertised or discussed in the "front room". If she asks for a tip, it is safe to ask her ?what for?, ie what exactly is she going to do for her tip... if she doesn't mention actual sex, then assume that there will be no actual sex, and tip accordingly).
John #3:
As everyone has pointed out, there is absolutely no guarantee that a woman on a street corner is not a cop, no matter what you do. Still, there are things you can do to lessen the risk of getting busted.
Many many many police departments have a policy that the decoy does not get in the car. Some might, and this is no guarantee, but you should still do this a one step to protect yourself. Do not talk about anything but offering her a ride or a "date" until she is in your car and you are on your way.
Cops can say they are not cops. However, it doesn't hurt to ask and if she does say something like "what do you think", or "come on, get real" than you might suspect she is a cop even though she is in the car.
This is important. Before you talk turkey, tell the woman "Before we talk any more, I'd like you to pull up your skirt and show me your pussy... I'm just being carefull". I do not believe any police officer will show you her pussy to make a bust. She might - there is no guarantee - but I don't think so. Now, if she has taken a dislike to you she might bust you anyway. What's to stop her from lying. She knows perfectly well what you are after whether you propose a specific act for a specific price or not. She may just figure you deserve bustin and lie through her teeth.
No matter what you do, there is a risk. I have had women ask to see my cock before they would talk to me. So I whip it out and tell them I wanna see some beaver - fair is fair. It has been a long long time since I picked up street hookers - I can afford better now - but I don't dis anybody who does. Been there and done that. As long as you are going to do that, you might as well do what ever you can to protect yourself which means using the three points above and, just as importantly, use condoms boys. But you knew that part...
John #4:
Here's a tip I follow to avoid entrapment.
I spend a lot of time cruising the areas were the girls hang out. I never pick up a new girl. I will need to see a girl on the street several times and at different hours of the day and night. And also see if they get in cars and leave with a john and how soon they come back.
I also leave the area when the police are patroling the area.
It's also nice to get a regular and talk to them about the other girls, and to find out if there's been any sting operations.
Another rule here also, if they're dressed really nice they're usually guys in drag.
Some more advice, no matter if you do know the girl never pay before you're in the room, and always wear a condom!
John #5:
>is there some way to tell for sure whether he is talking to a police
>officer or a true prostitute?
No...However, having watched several police stings in several mid-western cities...It is possible to locate the policetitute's backup and protection team. There will almost always be other plainclothes officers in line of sight to the undercover "prostitute". In the times when I observed the stings, in addition to an officer across the street in an unmarked car, there were also officers around the corner in a couple of cars and or van ready to jump out and arrest the solicator after a price for sex had been talked about. Due to officer safety, they usually will not get into the marks car and drive off with them away from their protective screen. In some states the undercover officer will take the john back to a hotel room where a two way mirror and recording set up is in place to record the John's offer for sex for money. The arresting/backup team will sometimes come into the room via a connected room.
Police will lie and they will lie about the facts of a case, so it is also not a good idea to bait them even if you have no intention of commiting an illegal act.
John #6:
As to a safe way to pick up girls on the street. I don't do that but hear the following line works great. "I'm just interested in doing a photo session." Real prostitutes will be thrilled, cops will have to say get lost. Then you get truthfull.
John #7:
The subject of determining if a prostitute is for real or an undercover police officer has been discussed here many times with a wide variety of responses. Something just occurred to me, and maybe it is a ridiculous idea, as I have never actually tried it, but a friend who had local jury duty saw several prostituion cases. Having seen them go through the courts, it would seem to be fairly safe that if you saw them later, you would know they are for real. Most courtrooms of this type are open to the public and it obviously would take some leg work.
John #8 (Escort Services):
I've never had a problem with answering an ad and getting the police, but that isn't to say that it can't happen. In general, you can tell if the number you called is a single person or an agency within the first 30 seconds or so. In the LA area (and other areas around the country), the agency will only give you the Agency Fee price. Then, they will ask if you are interested in making an appointment. If you say yes, they will have the specific girl call you back directly. I might suggest the following:
On the phone
Them:
You: Hi. I saw your ad in the LA XPress and I'd like some more information. -or- Hi. I've never used your service and I'd like some information on what you offer.
Them: Sure. What would you like to know (After all, they don't know you yet!)
You: Just general information... What you offer; What you charge.
Them: (Watch the wording here... there will be a test later) I/we offer a [massage, full body massage, dancer, etc.] that comes to your room for an hour (sometimes they use the phrase "up to an hour" -- This means that as soon as you come, she goes). The charge for this is $xxx. (Be careful to listen closely during this time. If the cost is referred to as an "Agency Fee" or it is much too low for a one hour outcall to your room, then it means that the girl with be splitting the fee with the agency and will expect a big tip for any extras. Sometimes, they will say that this is only for the girls time -- Same as above. In LA, $75-$125 is agency fee. Expect to pay $200-$250 for full service)
You: (If you aren't sure yet if it is a single girl or an agency, ask the following): Can you tell me a little more about what you look like?
Other questions that are fair to ask:
(If you've reached an agency:) Can you describe who/what is available tonite?
(If you've reached an agency:) I'm looking for someone who is:
tall/short/petite/large/slim (These mean different things)
blonde/brunette/redhead
asian/spanish/white
younger/older
playful/creative/enthusiastic/athletic
Is the session for a "full" hour, or up-to an hour?
How soon can you be here?
Can I schedule the visit for later today?
Questions that you should *NEVER* ask over the phone:
Will I get laid?
Is a rubber required?
Does she do Greek?
Can I come twice
Questions that the girl/agency may ask:
What is your full name?
Where are you staying?
What room are you in?
Are you alone?
Where are you from?
What do you do for a living?
Do you have a return airline ticket?
I suggest that you answer each of these questions (if asked) honestly and in full. The girl/agency is just as worried as you are, so it is not unusual for them to ask to see your drivers license (to confirm your home town), your airline ticket (to confirm you're not a local vice cop), etc.
After the girl arrives:
Once the girl has arrived, she'll want to sit and talk to you for a few minutes to determine that you're not crazy, sick, violent, a cop, etc. If she's going to stay, she may ask to "check-in" (either with a friend, her driver or the agency) to let them know she's staying. Anytime before this point, she may back out of the deal and leave. She is also likely to ask for payment up front before calling to check in.
Just before you pay the girl and she "checks-in", is about the only time that either of you can/is willing to/is likely to discuss exactly what you want and how much she expects to be paid/tipped for this session. DON'T BE RUDE OR CRUDE, or you'll end up spending the evening alone.
IMPORTANT NOTE: Remember that although she is a professional, she is also human. You'll both have a better time if you remember this. If she likes you (or at least feels comfortable that your not a loonie) then she can relax and enjoy herself more. And that will usually result in your getting better service.
Finally, you can expect that she'll ask you to disrobe completely before she begins to remove her clothing. This is unfortunate because I like to have both parties undress each other, but if you've never been with this girl (or agency) before, this is the last "test" for them to see if you're a cop or not.
GENERAL SUGGESTIONS
Have the exact amount (in cash if possible). After all, she isn't a bank teller. If you expect her to have the proper change, chances are you'll be disappointed and end up letting her keep the difference.
Always have your own supply of condoms. It's ok to be hopeful and have more than one, but I'd hesitate in breaking open a new 36 pack and saying "You can leave when these are gone." ;-)
Be showered and dressed when the girl arrives.
Be sober when the girl arrives. You can offer a drink after you and she have come to some agreement, but she's likely to say no to the offer before she knows that she'll be staying.
Date: 3 Jun 1995 13:34:30 -0400
>Could someone clue me in on how to ask for extras at a
>massage parlor? Also how do you determine if the massage
>ads in the classifieds are sexual massages?
Ask before the session, after you've taken off your clothes. This is normally the time to discuss tipping and services. You're supposed to tell her what you want, and how much you're willing to pay. Use their terminology. "Manual release" means hand job; "oral" for blow job; "full service" or "straight sex" for screwing; "half-and-half" for blow job followed by screwing. You might say, "I'd like a full service session - how's sixty?" If she doesn't do it, she'll tell you so, and you can move on from there. If you're interested in other extras, like eating pussy, french kissing, cumming on her, etc. mention them as well. No harm done. If she wants to try for more money, she'll either say it's not enough and wait for you to offer more or just tell you her price. Then you negotiate from there. The key is that it's your job to say what kind of sex you're after, not hers to volunteer what she'll do. This is because she's vulnerable to police stings, while a massage patron is virtually invulnerable.
As for finding a spa that offers sex, here are a few guidelines:
Any place that features "therapeutic" massage, or is listed in the yellow pages under "Massage Therapy" does NOT sell sex.
Most Oriental spas DO sell at least hand jobs, or else go out of business fast.
Most places that advertise in the sports section sells sex of some sort.
Most any place that keeps late evening hours (past 9PM) sells sex.
If in doubt, call them and ask:
Do they have an all-girl staff?
Do you have a choice of girls?
Does the session take place in a private room?
Do the girls work for tips?
Do they offer a shower? (Also, is it an "assisted shower"?)
Are appointments recommended, or advised?
Date: 1 Jun 1995 18:47:14 -0400
>Do lingerie modeling places offer services to the customer or
>is it generally a watch&jack operation only? The only one I've
>ever been to made it quite clear that I was to keep my
>distance, despite my giving her a LOT of money. Does this
>basically vary from girl to girl? Might I have better luck going
>back to the same girl again? She did seem to like me well
>enough and encouraged me to come back. She particularly liked
>that I remembered her name and we bullshitted about her job
>and found out we were practically neighbors (didn't get her
>exact address, darn!) and stuff.
>
>It seems that there really is very little difference between the
>lingerie place and a massage parlor, at least in terms of
>getting you alone with a girl. But from my limited experiences
>and the postings here, the lingerie services seem to be hands-
>off as a general rule-of-thumb. What are your experiences? I
>don't use these services often at all and would like to save the
>cash, so I'd like to have more realistic expectations when I go
>into these things. Thanks.
It varies from city to city, but generally lingerie modeling tends to be no touch, while massage parlors are often just incall brothels. Sometimes, a lingerie studio will also offer "light-touch body rubs", "relaxation rubdowns" or some other service that indicates contact. This may mean that local ordinances prohibit use of the term "massage" for anything but genuine therapeutic massage, and their "rub" will likely be sexual.
As for the session you describe, my foremost advice is to ALWAYS tell the girl what services you want before offering a large tip. If heavy contact or sex is available, she certainly won't be shocked. If it isn't, at least you'll know and can tip accordingly. If you sense that she might be more open to it after you've established some rapport, you might start with a minimal tip. Then, once things get underway, talk about what you can get for more. And don't worry about getting nabbed in a police sting or anything. Be direct and specific. I've never heard of a lady cop working undercover in a massage parlor or modeling studio.
I'm dubious about your chances with this girl on a return visit. It's good that you remembered her name and had a good talk. On the other hand, she might have thought your big tip was just an inducement for her to be extra sociable. I'm not surprised that she encouraged you to come back. Big tippers who are friendly and undemanding are usually popular at these places.
ANOTHER QUESTION...
> Could anyone out there help me with my isolated yearnings? I need
> to find an honest but knowledgeable dominant in Rochester or,
> failing that, Buffalo.
You have my sympathies. I grew up in Rochester and couldn't wait to get the hell out.
You might want to get your hands on a copy of Domination Directory International (DDI). The best Dominants in the country advertise in it, and you're pretty much assured that anyone listed will be genuine and give you what you pay for. DDI will drop any advertiser whom they get complaints about. You can find it in most major adult bookstores or order it from the address below.
Most professional Doms work in larger cities to have access to a larger client base, but most smaller cities also have some good professionals. Finding them can be the problem, as you've found. You might want to post something to alt.sex.femdom and be very clear that you're looking for a "professional". Either the Ladies or the gentlemen there are often good about making recommendations.
Expect to pay from $150-$300 a session, and the higher end will most likely be the more experienced "known" Ladies. Be sure to ask lots of questions about how many years of experience she has, what her specialities are, and what sorts of equipment she has available. If you get vague answers, don't go for it. Good professional Dominants are proud of their skills, fetish wardrobes, and equipment. Most professional Dominants will not engage in any sort of sexual contact with you, so don't be surprised if they get upset if you ask. What they do is legal, and most don't want to jepordize that. Good luck.
DDI
Strictly Speaking Publications.
Post Office Box 8006
Palm Springs, California 92263
ON MASSAGE SERVICES
After doing the massage scene for many years I can truly tell you that all of these other EMAIL postings on acupressure places is like reporting on the good restaurants of a city by pointing out the FAST FOOD places. Sure they are easy to find, but they barely scratch the surface on the pleasures that really await for you in the massage gourmet places. Introduce yourself to the wonderful world of home massages.
I STRONGLY RECOMMEND that you look into the LA Weekly, OC Weekly or in the San Francisco area in the classified of the Marin Independent Journal. You will find hundreds of ads, with unbelievably good looking girls, starting at 20 years old, that are making money on the side, many times right out of their home. I wish I can post the names/phones of the better ones, but unfortunately the cops are eager to track them down and arrest them. You will find them on these papers and if you read on I will give you some tips to increase your chances of success. The WEB is also the perfect place to see ads with pictures: check out www.thatmall.com and YAHOO under SENSUAL MASSAGE. See the pictures and you'll get an idea of where I'm coming from.
The main disadvantage of using newspapers is that you need to call and its complications: they usually want you to call again from a phone booth a few blocks away from the final destination.. The other problem is that 50% of the time you get an answering machine (to be avoided) since many times there is not a call back. Usually I keep calling other numbers until I get a live answer. This way you will have a good chance of getting an appointment and being there fast. Before you call, use the phone book to check on the phone prefix to ensure that it is close to where you are.
On the whole it is best to call places where there will be a live answer, usually if you call in the late morning or in places where there are at least two girls working. Some answering machine girls want to call you back to test if you are serious. If you are focused on a special ad that has an answering machine, you can leave a message(use a fake first name) but if in an hour they do not return the call, move on to the next one. Personally I only do that as a last resort or if I am willing to wait and retry with others in a 2-3 hour period. In the end I usually end up calling a number that has a direct answer.
You will be most pleasantly surprised in the quality of the girls that work out of the home. Many give an excellent massage, usually nude, and you can massage them as well. I have spent many a nights fantasizing on massages that I have gotten from 18 year old blondes with baby hairs in the pubic area that truly enjoyed getting fingered until they climaxed. The adventure of getting there is also exciting, walking up to their apartment door to be greeted by a smiling thong bikini California babe with (usually) a good attitude. I have been received by oiled up Brazilian chicks with the most incredible asses, swedish girls that get so horny that they want to fuck you in the end for no extra money. The tall blond that appeared in the Playboy Channel that lip locked to my instrument with true delight along with that perfectly cropped bush in my face. And that incredible redhead in Santa Monica who licked me all over and let m e fuck her twice in a three hour experience that involved the shower, sink, over the end of the sofa, the floor-bed-back-to-the-floor when the massage was scheduled only for an hour. They particularly like when you and her get on your knees facing each other while you finger them and they stroke you.
Many of my friends have followed up on some of these places. The funniest story is when I took 2 friends to this place. They liked it so much they returned 3 hours later again. They are into the Martial Arts and they proceeded to take over the last year over 20 students and the instructors as well!
The newspaper massage scene is clearly the way to go, no more of the acupressure places where the format is very repetitive. I've had many adventures this way, always trying new things: nipple-to-nipple 69's, tongue baths, three girls, prostate massages, pussy muscle control that squeezes around my wiener in all sorts of interesting ways, one girl blowing me, the other licking my ass , my toes have been licked, how about massages in hot tubs, outdoor tables in the sun. Try Tantric massages: it is the exotic hindu art of regenerating energy from the genitals and circulating upwards to the brain. Tantric massages start with eye gazing and synchronized breathing, moving on the front to front seated positions and at least an hour of getting Mr. Happy hard while she circulates the energy with her other hand and breath all over your body. Good times indeed, my friend.
There is a fine art to reading these ads, by carefully following these rules you will substantially increase your chances of a very pleasurable experience. Let's discuss what to avoid first.
Watch out for these keywords in the ads: mature masseuse or great gal (old), candlelight and warm table (the surroundings are great but she is ugly), discounts offered(again, a cheap massage is offered because the girl does not have that much to offer), full figure (a porker), voluptous(bordering on full figure, usually huge tits), morning or senior discounts (because she is a senior herself), ebony or chocolate (brown sugar), two girls for one (two ugly girls do not equal one pretty one), massage with a striptease show (a self service scheme that leaves you working out your own "problem"), "talk to me live, entertainer"(more hustlers) and $40-60 massages (stay away from cheap massages, there is a good reason why they are cheap) and for therapeutic massages: insurance accepted, acupuncture offered (Oh no), no mention of the word SENSUAL. Avoid the Orange County Register and the sex newspapers which are heavily infiltrated with strippers with burly drivers, in fact avoid all outcall services. They will charge beginning at $150 and to really make their money with tips of $50-200 more. These women are hard core hustlers. A silly business is LINGEREE MODELING. They cater to one time customers, usually out of towners since they do not offer the service you think you are going to get. After being greeted by a foxy looking girls in tiny panties and see through bras, you are led to a room with a chair and coffee table with a box of tissues. You can guess what's next: she dances for you, ever asking for more money to take off clothing, while you self-service. Might as well stay home, rent a video, at least you can rewind it to the better scenes again. . .
Now for the good keywords: the words SENSUAL or EROTIC, 18-22 years old , measurements included (36-24-38), body to body, greek(interfacing with the third input), french(playing the skin flute and swallow the melody), voice sounds young (usually they are). Expect to pay $120-150 for a nude body to body and $160-200 for full service. Again, anything under $100 is usually an older gal, some of them are nice but it leaves you wanting for more. It is up to you and your budget. Sure, paying $200 is expensive, however it leaves with an excellent set of memories for your lonelier times. Simply cool your next massage expenditures for a while to catch up with your budget. Believe me: a 10 woman is equal to 3 normal ones in terms of the pleasure and fantasies that you will have.
Since the business is perfect for young women and clients, everybody wins. The precision and control that those little hands can exert on your "Wet Willie" is amazing, it can extract all of your backed up plumbing in a most effective way. Hope this helps, GOOD LUCK. . .
A final point: once their rates are mentioned, say $120, ask if that is the final price since you want to know how much money to bring. If they start to mention that they may be extras, starting at $50, you will be faced with spending a lot more than you thought. If you don't think is worth it, it is best to decline from going. Otherwise you will be negotiating in your weakest moment: with a throbbing hard dick that has drained all the common sense out of your brain. . .
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Date: June 1997
Most girls won't discuss sex over the phone. If they offer a nude massage and will let you massage them, you should go for it. Most of the time they will offer more for a tip later; I usually bring up sex when they have massaged me for a while and I have a hard-on; it is then fairly clear that neither I nor she are cops. Sometimes they want to wait with sex till the second visit which is also ok with me. In any event, you will always get at least a hand job at the end, unless you run into a complete rip-off.
First choice are always referrals from friends, of course.
